Pat Ellis, the chaplain for Puget Sound Fire, discusses the topic of secondary traumatic stress. He explains that secondary traumatic stress is the chronic exposure to other people's traumatic experiences and how it impacts the responder's mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical health. Pat also differentiates secondary traumatic stress from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and compassion fatigue. He introduces the concept of vicarious trauma, which is a shift in worldview due to prolonged exposure to trauma. Pat mentions the emerging term of moral injury and its relevance to first responders' mental health. This conversation explores the variability of impact and cumulative effect of grief in the context of traumatic events. It highlights the different reactions individuals may have to these events and the signs of secondary stress to look out for. The importance of supporting others and promoting self-care is emphasized, along with the need to seek help when necessary. The conversation also discusses the importance of preparing for emotional impact and developing daily self-care practices. Finally, it emphasizes the power of positive self-affirmations and choosing positivity and hope in the face of challenging situations.
In this conversation, Pat Ellis discusses the importance of shifting to the next continuum of care and finding joy in life despite challenges. They also explore the experience of delivering difficult news and the need for training in this area. The concept of resilience is discussed, with a focus on preparing for the emotional impact of the job and wearing mental and emotional body armor. Decision fatigue and its manifestation are explored, as well as the relationship between stress and nutrition. The mindset of career personnel and the difference between volunteers and career personnel are also examined. The conversation concludes with contact information for further inquiries.
Takeaways
Sound Bites
Chapters
00:00Technical Difficulties
02:00Introduction and Microphone Setup
05:19Background and Purpose of the Interview
08:08Teaching Secondary Traumatic Stress
11:19Success of Recent Class
12:06Definition of Secondary Traumatic Stress
13:18Differentiating Secondary Traumatic Stress from PTSD
18:02Compassion Fatigue and Vicarious Trauma
19:41Introduction to Moral Injury
21:27Shift in Worldview
22:50Differentiating Vicarious Trauma and Secondary Traumatic Stress
25:33Variability of Impact
26:19Cumulative Effect of Grief
27:44Different Reactions to Traumatic Events
29:36Signs of Secondary Stress
30:01Isolation and Withdrawal
31:19Hypervigilance
36:03Supporting Others
37:30Self-Care and Seeking Help
38:05Preparing for Emotional Impact
49:41Daily Self-Care Practices
53:46Positive Self-Affirmations
57:01Choosing Positivity and Hope
58:59Shifting to the Next Continuum of Care
01:00:05Finding Joy in Life
01:00:22Dealing with Grief and Dying
01:00:42Delivering Difficult News
01:01:11Teaching Others to Deliver Difficult News
01:01:28Striving Towards Resilience
01:02:10Resilience as Psychological Body Armor
01:03:02Preparing for the Emotional Impact of the Job
01:03:49Decision Fatigue and Lack of Energy
01:04:20Wearing Mental and Emotional Body Armor
01:05:53The Green Apron as a Cape
01:06:32The Concept of Decision Fatigue
01:07:21The Manifestation of Decision Fatigue
01:09:06The Relationship Between Stress and Nutrition
01:09:33Different Manifestations of Stress Release
01:12:22The Importance of Education and Preparedness
01:13:46The Mindset of Career Personnel
01:17:48The Difference Between Volunteers and Career Personnel
01:19:47Contact Information
01:23:06Global Reach of the Podcast
01:24:04Proactive Resiliency Planning
Pat Ellis (08:08.06)
Sure. Well, my name is Pat Ellis and I am the lead chaplain for Puget Sound Fire in the South King County area in the Kent area. Also work with Kent Police and with Valleycom 911 Dispatch Center in the South King County area as well. And we met when I was teaching a class on secondary traumatic stress, which is a topic I've become passionate about because I see how it impacts and influences our first responders.
how they live, how they respond, how they act. So that's how we met. Class is sponsored by the, I want to say the Northwest EMS Council, I believe. North region, yes, yes, yep. And so, yeah.
Jennifer (08:47.122)
North region EMS Council, North region EMS Council. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was such a fantastic opportunity. The North region council. Yeah, the North region. You know, I'm like putting putting Weston, the North region EMS Trauma Care Council brought you in for the five counties that make up the council. They brought you in to teach a
Pat Ellis (09:02.14)
Hahaha!
Jennifer (09:13.25)
the same topic at all five counties instead of making all the providers come to a single conference where you would teach. So that was quite a benefit. And I understand you've already got a command performance lined up for, is it Island County or San Juan County?
Pat Ellis (09:29.492)
Island County. They're bringing me back in. Yep. Yep. One of the fire departments is bringing me back in. And it looks like I'll be doing another one for we had a couple of dispatchers in this class class that you were in and from somewhere down south or the peninsula or something like that. And it sounds like I'm going to be heading over that direction as well. Yeah.
Jennifer (09:31.63)
Island County. Okay.
Jennifer (09:41.42)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (09:48.302)
Okay.
Oh, really wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being so giving of your time and driving to all of those assorted counties. I want to let you know that I actually have an appointment with the mayor of Mount Vernon on Friday. And I'm going to talk to him about the opportunity to bring you in to talk to all of the city employees, not just fire, EMS and police, but your park service, anybody who works with human beings.
Pat Ellis (10:12.196)
Oh wow.
Jennifer (10:19.246)
in sort of that outward fashion anytime you provide a service to human beings. I thought that that would be a really good one. I don't know if it's gonna go anywhere. It's my first time meeting as a brand new mayor. But after attending your class in Skagit County, I thought, there's a demographic that's not being served here. And I'm actually gonna bring that up later, but there's this demographic that's not being served. And what can I do to try and get you to come back?
Pat Ellis (10:19.418)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (10:25.788)
Yes. Yeah.
Jennifer (10:45.23)
in a meaningful fashion, make the best out of your time as well as our time. So I'll keep you posted.
Pat Ellis (10:50.108)
Right. Well, I just did a traumatic stress management class for the city of Edgewood just last week. Yeah, for all their parks and public works people. It's not unheard of. Yeah.
Jennifer (10:55.47)
Okay. Oh, wonderful. Wonderful.
Okay, well, that's that's just who I'm thinking of. Yeah, absolutely. And it was only recently so I met you earlier this month at the one in Skagit County. And then about a week and a half later, you had the one in Snohomish County that was hosted at Everett Firefighters Hall. How did that one go?
Pat Ellis (11:19.516)
It went phenomenal actually really really well. It was extremely well attended. We had a lot of people there which was great. We had a great class and phenomenal feedback. So yeah, I think the class went well.
Jennifer (11:21.358)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (11:34.574)
Okay, great. I'm so glad that it went well. And I'm so sorry I couldn't be there because I was one of the two people arranging it. But I just conflicts between my jobs across counties. So let's talk about secondary traumatic stress. First of all, I wonder if you can tell me your definition, but also if that's a term that you have coined or if that's more of a common
Pat Ellis (11:42.012)
That's it.
Pat Ellis (11:46.458)
Yep, totally understand.
Jennifer (12:02.4)
phrase in your world is something that people speak of things that.
Pat Ellis (12:06.076)
Well, I wish I could say I was smart enough to have coined secondary traumatic stress, but it's a very popular term when you're talking about trauma. You know, where you have acute trauma reactions, which is the post -traumatic stress, and you have the secondary traumatic stress is more of, you know, when I see somebody else's traumatic experience and how that impacts me.
So it's not a term I coined, but it is definitely a term that I see played out every day.
Jennifer (12:39.374)
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I understood it from your presentation in Skagit County, that it's not the PTSD that I get as a responder from seeing a terrible accident. It is rather the...
impact on me when I watch somebody else who has gone through a traumatic incident. So the patient emotional behavior and residual problems that they're dealing with, then that's what's impacting me and not actually my visualizing the car crash scene or the terrible incident. Do I have that pinned down properly? Okay.
Pat Ellis (13:18.844)
Yes, yeah you really do. When we see how other people suffer because of the experience that they've had, because of our humanness, we see that and we feel for them. And because our first responders are chronically exposed to that, that's where all this comes from.
Jennifer (13:42.67)
Okay, so I like that it's sort of our reaction to someone else's suffering. Okay, and not our reaction to seeing the trauma that's that there's like the first person's trauma. And then there's that second person trauma. And this, okay. All right. And how did you come to focus on that, as opposed to say, I'm going to call standard PTSD among responders? How did how did that happen?
Pat Ellis (13:47.58)
Yes. Yep.
Pat Ellis (13:58.716)
Yes.
Pat Ellis (14:10.236)
Well, I had somebody mentioned to me a number of years ago this term called compassion fatigue. And I honestly didn't know what that term was. And so I started looking it up. And when I Googled it, actually, I found my picture. It started reading the signs and symptoms of what compassion fatigue is. And that sent me on this journey to started to really understand and realize that
It's not, I mean, when a first responder sees some traumatic horrific incident that takes place, yes, that post -trauma, the after -traumatic stress that takes place. And then, you know, we're such, we focus on such big things like post -traumatic stress disorder. And we have this firefighter, this police officer, dispatcher who can't work or having trouble at home or, you know, the PTSD. Well, yes, that happens. And I don't...
in any way you wanna minimize that or take away from that. But when you look at the ratio of how many first responders we have to how many are actually diagnosed with PTSD, it's different. The number is quite large as far as those who don't. I mean, I look at my dad who spent 35 years in emergency services and he doesn't, he's not been diagnosed with PTSD and doesn't have the symptoms of it.
And I look at many other retired firefighters, police officers, the same thing. So it's like, what is it that really gets us? And when I started looking at, you know, the difference between that post -traumatic stress versus the compassion fatigue and the secondary traumatic stress that we see, the chronic exposure to those impacts, that's what starts to shape and drive
our culture and what impacts me in a negative way. The addiction issues, the extramarital affair issues, the can't sleep issues, the I can't get it out of my head issues, because we're just chronically exposed to these things over and over and over again. And that's not post -traumatic stress disorder. That's different. It's what I discovered in secondary traumatic stress. It's like, wow.
Pat Ellis (16:30.332)
What is it that gets us in the end as a first responder? Is it that really horrific call that I've been on? You know, for some, yes, that's what gets you in the end. But for the majority of us, no, it's the chronic exposure to other people's traumatic experiences. And that's what secondary traumatic stress is. So that kind of started me on this road of looking at this. And yeah, so.
Jennifer (16:48.174)
Okay.
Pat Ellis (16:55.292)
That's when I came to realize and so I started developing these classes around that topic so that we can start to really understand What that means because I believe knowledge is power in first responders were such control freaks I need to know everything and control everything if I don't know something then I make it up Or I don't know what it means so I'm not gonna tell anybody I don't know because that makes me feel dumb and so then I'm in this horrible vortex of You know of I can't figure this out. Well now if I can name it
and I can say this is what this is, that gives me power over that thing in my world, gives me control over that. So, yeah.
Jennifer (17:33.102)
I like that I've learned a couple of additional names. So secondary traumatic stress was a new one for me. I've heard of compassion fatigue and I remember my reaction when I first heard of compassion fatigue and thought like, that's it. That's the thing that I have. I'm not replaying calls in my brain. I'm not having flashbacks. I'm not having nightmares or things like that. The things that we typically associate with PTSD.
Pat Ellis (17:48.96)
Right?
Jennifer (18:02.734)
I'm not drinking or drugging or, you know, other self harm as a result of it. What I am is no longer as tolerant or compassionate to my patients. I feel like, I've had enough and that sort of colored how I was viewing things. And, you know, you have to get yourself out of that head space. You have to start each day fresh.
Pat Ellis (18:09.082)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (18:32.814)
With a new outlook, you have to forgive everybody who got too wasted on pot the night before and called 911 because they were having cyclic vomiting. And then the next shift, you have to go back in and say, it's a new day. It's not the same patient. It's not the same circumstance. And sort of let that go. And compassion fatigue really got me there. So secondary traumatic stress, compassion fatigue, but then moral injury is the newest one.
Pat Ellis (18:52.988)
Yes. Yeah. Yep. That in.
Pat Ellis (19:01.5)
Yeah, that's yes, that is the new term that's really making the rounds in the peer support culture and the mental health world when it comes to first responders is this issue of moral injury. And I can honestly tell you, I don't know a tremendous amount about it right now because I haven't done a lot of research into it, but I do know that it is absolutely a.
It of that puzzle when it comes to our mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical health. It is absolutely a piece of that puzzle, that moral injury.
Jennifer (19:41.742)
hoping to have a couple of firefighters come on and talk about that. They've been doing a lot of research specifically as moral injury as that title. So I love it. But let's stick with secondary trauma. You also used a phrase in your presentation called vicarious trauma. And do you differentiate sort of is vicarious trauma a subcategorization of secondary traumatic stress?
Pat Ellis (19:51.932)
Yes.
Pat Ellis (20:02.332)
Yes.
Pat Ellis (20:11.836)
It is, yes, for sure. So when you talk, and so when you look at that secondary traumatic stress that occurs after hearing the stories, right? And not just hearing, but witnessing and experiencing it, that being a part of, when we hear we're a part of. The vicarious trauma, what that does is it actually a shifting in our attitude or worldview.
after that prolonged exposure. So when we're chronically exposed to trauma, other people's experiences to trauma, their emotional reactions to trauma, their grief reactions, then when I begin to start viewing the world differently, that's what vicarious trauma is.
And so when we talk about viewing the world differently, it's kind of relates to that compassion fatigue. It's like, really, you called 911 for this, or you see someone who wears their pants down around their butt, and we instantly categorize them into a certain type of group of people. Because we've seen that group of people on a regular basis. It's not that I'm prejudiced to it, it's just that's just what we see.
Jennifer (21:27.886)
sure.
Pat Ellis (21:28.764)
You know, so when I go into a restaurant and sit with my back to the wall because of officer safety and situational awareness, that's a part of that. I don't trust the motives of other people because of what I've seen on such a regular basis. Therefore, I'm going to make sure I'm watching my own back. Right. That's that's a shift in the worldview of that. The world is a good place. No, it's not. Right. Yeah.
Jennifer (21:54.254)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Pat Ellis (21:57.66)
So it is a related term to that secondary traumatic stress, but it is separate because it's, but they're all interconnected, right?
Jennifer (22:04.844)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (22:08.526)
Mm -hmm. So a little bit like not my circus, not my monkeys is secondary traumatic stress and then vicarious trauma is, and now I hate the monkeys.
Pat Ellis (22:20.124)
Yeah, that's like, you know what happened to steal that? That's awesome.
Jennifer (22:23.182)
Okay. That's what was just playing in my mind. So that's perfect. Okay. Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. Okay. Yay. Oh, good. This is going to be like, that's going to be the not my circus. And now I hate the monkeys. That's going to be the headline of this. Okay. Good. I'm really glad. That's what came to my mind when you were talking about it is just this idea, the shift of the worldview. I think...
Pat Ellis (22:26.968)
That's exactly what it is. Not my surges, not my monkeys, but now I hate the monkeys. That is absolutely, that's classic. Oh, I love that. That's perfect. Nailed it. Exactly.
Yep.
Pat Ellis (22:50.14)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (22:50.87)
Speaking about myself and when I think about compassion fatigue, I felt my compassion slipping. I felt the compassion fatigue, but I don't believe I've gone around the bend with regard to the vicarious trauma where I've ingrained it. I may have, of course. But what's interesting is I teach EMT students at the community college and I always talk to them about...
All the instructors that come in are going to share with you their knowledge. They're going to share with you the book learning, but they're going to share with you their experiences. And you have to remember that we are all the sum of our experiences. So for example, I have a very negative view about delivering babies. First of all, I'm not kid oriented. I'm not baby oriented. It's all kind of creepy, you know, X -files stuff to me just to begin with, like right off the bat. That's not where I live and breathe.
Pat Ellis (23:33.372)
Hehehehehe
Jennifer (23:43.406)
But then on top of that, the deliveries that I've done in the field, each one has been sort of more horrifying than the one before, not necessarily because of life threatening, but trapped in a blizzard delivering a baby and babies that fall out on the way to the, oh, I didn't know I was pregnant, those kinds of things. So I tell my students, just understand that my experiences have colored. So when I teach the obstetrical,
God forbid they make me, but if I teach the obstetrical lecture, you're going to get my view of it, you know, make your own. So yeah, I, I, I don't know. I also wonder in, oh, please go ahead.
Pat Ellis (24:17.18)
Right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, I would say, you know, with that, you know, the truth is we're all different and we view the world differently and we view circumstances and situations differently and we're impacted differently by the different things, which is why I tell people never judge your response or non -response based on somebody else's response or non -response. You own how that trauma is impacting you. You own that. And we're all different. The key is, is...
It doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you wrong. It doesn't make you sick. It doesn't mean that something is, you know, you're off. It simply means that you're human like everybody else and it's okay, right? So there's so many different various levels. It's like grief. You know, we have the stages of grief and we go through this stage, this stage. Well, we know that that's not true. You don't go through this stage, check it off. Now I've go to this stage and check it off, right?
It's like waves crashing on the beach and they're different every single time. And then pretty soon a sneaker wave comes up and knocks you on your can. You're like, holy crap, where'd that come from? Right? That's what this is. That's what this is. And so we have to get out of that comparability mindset. Right? And you're right. Excuse me. We all clicker.
Jennifer (25:33.262)
Click, take a moment, it's just fine. You were saying waves on the beach.
Pat Ellis (25:35.42)
Yep, nope. So you're right. Yes. So they're like waves on the beach that just sweep up and every one of those waves is different and every one of those waves is gonna end every now and then the sneaker wave comes up and knocks you on your can, right? We're all different. And you're absolutely right. I'm going to share from my personal experience because that's my experience. But that doesn't mean that your experience and my experience are gonna be the same.
So there's very different levels of degrees of variabilities and of these impacts. That's why one person gets diagnosed with PTSD and another person doesn't. What's the difference? I don't know, we all do the same job. It's just about being human.
Jennifer (26:19.406)
Yeah. And of course, like you said, waves on the beach with regard to the way that grief or the way that the emotions strike us. But there's also this sort of cumulative effect over the course of a lifetime or of a career life where, you know, I can think of the first call that comes to mind when I think about recent, very distressing things was a...
elderly couple that was struck by a drunk driver while crossing the street. Both were killed and they this is this is horrible. And this is not meant to be funny, but you can't help but appreciate it. They were attempting to rehome a family of possums. And that's why they were crossing the street in the dark. And so there was wreckage of human beings wreckage of a vehicle wreckage of possums and baskets. And, and this is this is an obscure, strange, very silly.
Pat Ellis (27:08.644)
Oh my god.
Jennifer (27:14.542)
and deeply personal story, but there's something different with the way it affected me than the way it affected my partner. And I was a 25 year veteran at that time and my partner was about a five year veteran at that time. And I think about the fact that I can still, I have such recall of that incident and my feelings from that incident. And I wonder if he does as well, but,
Pat Ellis (27:25.316)
Thank you.
Jennifer (27:44.43)
it hasn't yet hit me as a PTSD. I'm just aware that I'm carrying that baggage of that particular call. I'm like, okay, if one's going to get me possums, that's what's going to happen. That's what I'm aware of.
Pat Ellis (27:55.484)
Right. Well, you know, and I don't know if you have a trigger event, but if you're driving down the road and you see the possum laying on the sidewalk that's got hit by a car and you all of a you think back to that event. Right. So does that mean you have PTSD because you're having flashbacks or you have post -traumatic stress injury because you're having this flashback? No, it's simply you experience after trauma stress. So post -traumatic stress.
Jennifer (28:06.638)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Pat Ellis (28:24.38)
Post -traumatic stress disorder different right But we all you know, I mean I might not you might make it through your entire career and never be diagnosed with PTSD awesome But you've experienced post -traumatic stress and you're going to experience it again, you know because that's just the nature of what we do and So I think that's important, you know to really note that yes, I have I walked through the
Jennifer (28:26.22)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jennifer (28:40.044)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (28:44.942)
Yeah.
Pat Ellis (28:52.244)
And then summertime and I'm walking through the fruit aisle of Safeway and I catch a little bit of ripe fruit smell Where I met a fruit stand and it's like, oh, I know that smell takes me back to some pretty gruesome images in my head, right? They're not demons. They're just memories They're just memories. Yeah
Jennifer (28:57.676)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (29:04.78)
Yeah.
They're just memories. Okay. You brought up earlier about the manifestations of stress, sleeplessness, drinking, drugging, extramarital affairs, and all of those sort of things. And of course, it doesn't have to be that extreme. It doesn't have to be the job has created this environment where you have gone into this self -abusive or self -destructive behavior. But what are some signs that...
we should look out for imagining that a newer provider who doesn't quite have all of their personal sensibilities like that affected me this way, this is going to affect me that way. Somebody who isn't quite as self -aware yet in their job. What sort of things should people look out for when they've experienced secondary stress or to tell them like, hey, this is a red flag, you're dwelling, you're holding, you're injured?
Pat Ellis (30:01.02)
Sure. I think the biggest one is isolation and withdrawal. When you start isolating yourself or withdrawing from emotional and social contact, like you've got plans, you're supposed to go out Friday night with a bunch of your friends and you're just like, I don't want to do it. Right? And you can't really necessarily pinpoint like a reason, but you're just, the energy level to go out and do that is not there. We start to withdraw.
from that normal social interaction. I think that's the biggest one. When you start noticing that, that social and emotional isolation, numbness, you know, just, but emotional numbness, like, that goes along with that. The reason I withdraw is because I'm numb or numbing, right? So that's a big, I think that's huge. When we start,
that numbing or emotional blunting goes right along with that. But the increased hypervigilance, right, is another big one. And especially hypervigilance about the things that are around you that other people do and you're like, that guy's an idiot, I would never do something like that. That's super dangerous, right?
We do that with our grandkids all the time and our kids are like, oh my God, I can't believe they let our grandkids do that. And it's like any normal parent would let their kids do that. But for us, we're hyper vigilant because of what we've seen. So I think those are big ones. Those are big ones. They're not destroying who you are or wrecking your personality. Those are just signs that they're there. So those are a few.
Jennifer (31:46.158)
Do you think a key component of that would be sort of, for example, I'm an introvert, so I probably wouldn't be going out with that group of people anyway. And so for an introvert, it wouldn't be as much, or it might not be as much about canceling plans, not going out. And I think, hang on.
I went to the zoo on that one, so hang on. Okay.
Pat Ellis (32:14.108)
You
Jennifer (32:18.606)
You talked about isolating yourself. To what degree do you think it's different between sort of introverts and extra extroverts? Because I think a lot of us, it's become a topic that we're pretty conversant in, is whether we ourselves are introverts or extroverts. So do you think that plays an impact in how we react to these secondary stress incidents?
Pat Ellis (32:42.492)
Sure, yeah, absolutely, our personality styles. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And for those who are introverts, it's easy to go, well, I'm just introverted, so I'm just, I like people, I just don't like them when they're, I feel better when they're not around. But when, there's a difference between I'm just introverted and I'd rather just be home, because I'm a homebody, to isolation, where I'm cutting off people from my work.
because I don't want to tell them how I'm doing. I don't want to answer the question, hey, how are you doing? I'm fine. I get tired of answering that question, right? So that's a form of isolation. So then you start avoiding contact, right? That would be for that introvert who not necessarily avoids contact, but they'd just rather be home. Cool. But now you're avoiding contact because you don't want people to judge you or you don't want to answer those questions. That's isolation.
Jennifer (33:18.028)
Thank you.
Pat Ellis (33:42.204)
That makes sense.
Jennifer (33:42.318)
Okay. Oh, that makes complete sense. And you actually, you queued in on something there is that I'm introverted, therefore I don't really want to go, but am I taking that next step and not even allowing the contact that I would normally allow that? I always take the call when my mom calls, you know, and maybe that's where I'm drawing the line and maybe using it as an excuse.
Pat Ellis (33:57.788)
Yep.
Pat Ellis (34:01.66)
Right? Yep. Yep. And I think you keep your... Yeah, exactly. And you keep on the word normal, right? What you would normally do. Normal, that's a relative and comparative term, right? It's relative to what I do, comparative to the people I spend my time with. So normals are gonna be very, very different. You know, I asked somebody the other day, asked me what normal was, and I said, well, my wife told me it's a setting on our dryer, you know?
But you know for what my normal interaction is when when I'm not living up to my normals I'm pushing my normals away or aside or stuffing those that's That's the key right your normals are suddenly those violation of your normal blinds
Jennifer (34:51.854)
So that's talking about it from sort of an internal perspective saying, I may be having some problems with secondary trauma because I'm withdrawing in these ways, because I'm hypervigilant, because I no longer feel confident with... My husband, for example, goes hunting and when he wants to go hunting by himself, I'm just, that's... For me, that's a real cringe topic. I recall very distinctly a patient that was...
Pat Ellis (35:14.172)
Hehehehe
Jennifer (35:19.95)
It was a circumstance where someone was shot. A hiker was shot because she was wearing a black fuzzy fleece and looked like a bear. And so when he goes, I just for me, that's I'm clawing the walls and I'm demanding like he spray paint his body orange like he's going to an NFL game. It's just I want as much orange as possible. So I can see that about myself. I can see he doesn't have to do very much to say, you know, calm down. I'm wearing the vest. I'm doing what people do.
Pat Ellis (35:29.884)
Uh -huh.
Pat Ellis (35:37.244)
you
Right?
Jennifer (35:50.094)
But how do we call other people out on it? How do we recognize it in other people? And how do we maybe help them see what we're seeing?
Pat Ellis (36:03.644)
great question because when we start looking at the signs and symptoms of how we're impacted by things, the first people who see those are the ones who are closer to us. We don't see them in ourselves. And one of the hallmarks is because of our personality styles is we don't necessarily believe the people around us. So when they say, hey, you've been a little bit withdrawn lately, you know, and I'm like, not leave me alone. Sure. Geez. Can't believe you'd say that to me. Right. And so it's about one is.
Jennifer (36:28.27)
Right.
Pat Ellis (36:32.188)
We really need to listen to the people around us because they do have our best interests in mind. But two, you know, it's that's that that whole peer support relationship. If I have a relationship with someone and I care about them and I show that on a regular basis and I go, hey, you know, let's have a cup of coffee because I'm really concerned about some of the stuff that I'm seeing in your world. You know, whereas I come up to somebody that I work with, but maybe don't really know and go, man, you've been a jerk lately, right? That's not going to go over.
very well. So it's that relationship piece, I think. And, you know, like a duty to act, the name of your podcast, I think we have a duty to act in a place of relationship with the people that we work with, we should be caring about others. And but it is a very difficult conversation to have sometimes, right. And sometimes it's a proactive, long conversation. Yeah.
Jennifer (37:30.89)
All right. Tell me about self -care. Let's say I've begun to recognize that my emotions, my empathy level is dropping, that I am holding grudges against patients. So I'm thinking about a little bit of the compassion fatigue. I'm thinking a little bit about the vicarious trauma. And then I just start to over...
over emotional in ways I hadn't been before about what I've witnessed. The mother who lost her son and I can't get past her grief. I can't get past her suffering. What can I do for self care?
Pat Ellis (38:05.596)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (38:11.996)
Right. Well, that's a $50 million question because it's going to be different again for all of us, right? And then what's the level of that? You know, when I hurt myself when I was a kid, my dad used to tell me, I just rub some dirt on it. You'll be fine. Well, for cuts and bruises and scrapes, that's probably true. But if my arm is broken, that ain't going to work. So, you know, it's really about that level where.
Jennifer (38:33.772)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (38:41.18)
How full is that cup, right? Is it just that I just need to go out and hit my mountain bike and go turn pedals for a couple hours, I'm gonna feel better? Then great, then go do what it is that you love to do. If it's underwater basket weaving, then man, go get your swimsuit on and go do it. That's where that self -care comes in, where you're actually going out and you're investing in that thing that makes you feel better. Do it.
Right. But if you're really struggling, you can't sleep, you can't get the images out of your head, can't get the sound, sight, smells out of your head. And you try to do different things, but it just isn't working. Then good grief, move yourself to the next continuum of care and go see a counselor, someone who has been trained to help you process through those emotional expressions. You know, so so, yeah, so there's, you know, I mean, there's so many.
tips and tools, we talk about self acceptance, clear sightedness and an open mind. Well, there's a level where I can do that by myself, where I can accept what I'm going through as, hey, this is something that I've experienced and it's a memory and I'm gonna be okay. Or it's like, I need someone to help me move through that process, right? And there's nothing wrong with that. If that's where you're at, then by all means, go do something. The key is, is that you're doing something.
That's what's important. Our default setting is to just wait until it all goes away. You just stuff it, right? We do that emotionally, we do that physically. I can't tell you how many firefighter funerals I've done where firefighters died of a heart attack because they thought they would just sleep it off and they would feel better in the morning. Why is it that we're the last ones to call for help? Because we're the ultimate people helpers, which makes us the hardest people to help, right?
Jennifer (40:32.686)
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
Pat Ellis (40:34.3)
Um, so I've literally have looked at a few people and said, man, just get over yourself and go get some help. It's okay. You know.
Jennifer (40:44.238)
So let's talk about getting help. There are a couple of organizations out there. There's Code4. There is the IAFF has a Center for Excellence. And then we have through my department, we have a contract with Northwest Response. It's a sort of a private company that contracts to keep on top of us and.
Pat Ellis (40:52.156)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (41:10.738)
some of that we can go to. Many employers have EAP, employee assistance programs. Your departments, you're a chaplain, so you're a staff person for these sort of things. But let's imagine the listener who really doesn't have that. They're in an introductory job, an entry -level job where they don't have EAP. They may not even have health insurance.
Pat Ellis (41:22.906)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (41:38.318)
They may feel like the IFF Center for Excellence, they're not in the IFF. They may not understand code four because they think that's just suicide related. How do people find help? How would I vet somebody and say EAP is better for me than code four in these circumstances?
Pat Ellis (41:57.404)
Sure. Well, there's a lot of resources, but they're hard to find sometimes. And a lot of it is that understanding, like Code 4 Northwest. It's not just about suicide or addiction treatment, right? Code 4 has almost 100 mental health professionals all across the state of Washington that have been vetted to understand emergency services and know which insurance they take and which ones they don't take and can help you find the right fit.
You know, and so a lot of it is the struggle that we have is our 911 mentality where if I call for help, I get help right now. And but the mental health world doesn't work that way unless you're calling a crisis line like a suicide hotline or something like that. Then you're probably going to get help right now. But you're calling because I think I need to go see a counselor. It might be a week or two weeks before you actually get in to go see a counselor, because that's just how the mental health world is.
Um, and it's like trying to put a round peg into a square hole. Um, that's a fit quite right, you know? So there's so much, um, misunderstanding, a lack of understanding of one, how the mental health world works. How do I access that? And when do I access that? Because we wait till I'm in crisis. I don't know what to do with myself. I need help. I have anybody else to help. Nine one one. Right. That's what.
that's in our world. And so I'm looking for, you know, I call, I find Code 4 Northwest's phone number. I call them. They give me a referral to a mental health professional. And then it's two weeks before I can get in, you know, so that lack of understanding. So we need, we, we have to have better understanding of the resources that are available to us and how those resources work. Right. So yeah, it's a, that's a, that's a tough one. Um,
So that person who maybe doesn't understand or they're new into the business, like, well, new people are even more that much more afraid to call for help because they have to prove themselves. And our culture teaches us, teaches them that, hey, you have to prove yourself. You can't sit in the big lazy chair. You can't, you know, eat at the same dinner table. You can't, you know, all this stuff until you prove yourself. Well, that makes it exponentially hard.
Pat Ellis (44:21.436)
on our new firefighters and new police officers. So it makes it even that much harder for them to reach out for help when they need help. And so a lot of it is just overcoming that stigma within our culture that, you know, you got to wait till you prove yourself in order for this to happen. No, if you need help, get help. And yeah, reach out. Man, if you don't know where to go that will EAP. Well, give them a shot. Why not? Right.
If that's the resource you have, then go for it. Use it. As long as you're getting help, going somewhere to do something. That's the key.
Jennifer (44:58.062)
All right. I sort of went through a whole bunch of thoughts as you were listing all of those things out. And I think, I wonder with my, well, first of all, I can tell you with my students at the community college, at the community college, a great reason to teach through community college is the amount of infrastructure that's there. So if I were to identify a student in the class who's not coping well, seems to be,
Pat Ellis (45:03.676)
Thank you.
Pat Ellis (45:18.01)
Right.
Jennifer (45:23.95)
not managing the content, had a ride along that went kind of badly. I know within the community college how I would reach out and whether that would be a lasting relationship that the student would make, but I know that. And of course in my workplace, I know about Northwest Response. By the way, Julie's been on the podcast. So if anybody's listening, that would be a...
Julie, oh gosh, I think episode number two, maybe three was so fantastic. Yes, Julie Boyer. And so I know that I would reach out to Julie's organization, but I don't know if I've ever told my students, hey, if you're having trouble, there's this resource on campus. You can reach out at any time or you can call on me to help you reach out.
Pat Ellis (45:53.656)
new boy.
Jennifer (46:13.934)
I don't think I've ever oriented them to that. I think I just wait and see if there's a problem. And then when I identify a problem, I send them over, which is sort of my 911 response. That's me saying, I wait till there's a problem, then I put a fix on it, as opposed to giving them that resource at a time. And the same thing is true for my coworkers. I'm a field trainer at work. So I see a lot of new people as they're coming up through the process. I don't know that I've ever said, hey,
this is what you would do if you need that. I think I just assumed that HR told them or it came in a handbook somewhere. And instead, I'm vigilant in looking for the issues that I would refer them, but never preemptively saying, go get help if you need it beforehand. So that's a great thought to add. I keep making, every time I do a podcast, it seems like I make a list of like, I need to add that to the list of things, my to -do list at work. Yeah.
Pat Ellis (46:48.604)
Right.
Pat Ellis (46:59.068)
Right. Yeah.
Pat Ellis (47:04.696)
Right? Yeah. Well, you know, and it's like I go get a physical every year to make sure I'm staying healthy and, you know, watching for, you know, any physical issues that my doctor might be able to catch and stuff like that. Why don't we do that with our heads? Right. Why don't we why don't we go in at least once a year to a mental health professional and just sit down with them and talk about life, love and the pursuit of happiness and things that are going on and just do a head check?
Jennifer (47:20.822)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (47:33.126)
I actually have, I do that. I have a mental health professional that I actually meet every six months. I spend 45 minutes with him every six months, just doing a head check. Talk about my world, talk about what's going on, how the job is going, how things at home are going. And to make sure my head's in the right spot, he kind of, he kind of tunes me up a little bit, which is really important. And because I've been doing this for several years, I now have a relationship with this mental health professional.
So he knows me, he knows the things that I deal with and struggle with. So we have our mental health check in, he'll ask me questions about how things are going over the last six months and stuff like that. And at the same time, if I'm in the middle and I'm two months away from my next appointment and I'm really kind of struggling a little bit, I call him up and I'm making an appointment. He knows me, I know him, right? We don't have to go through the whole get to know each other first two sessions. So.
I can't tell you how important it is. And I've had, it's happened now more often, it's happening more where I'm getting calls from firefighters, police officers saying, hey, I don't have a crisis going on, but I think I'd like to just meet a counselor and start doing that head check thing. I'm like, yes. Right. And get them connected with somebody. That's what, you know, that's what resilience is, being prepared. So if I have something bad happens, I'm prepared. I've got somebody who can help me through it.
It's phenomenal and it's easy and my insurance covers it.
Jennifer (48:58.35)
Right. It's like if anybody if anybody gets like that three times a year massage covered by your insurance or or acupuncturist, maybe just think of it this way. So, yeah, that's pretty great. You brought up resilience and preparation, and that was a theme in your presentation. You said, be prepared. This is going to happen to you.
Pat Ellis (49:07.996)
Right?
Yes!
Jennifer (49:24.334)
that you're about to see things, you will suddenly feel something that you haven't felt before. What are some ideal ways to prepare in addition to developing a relationship with a mental health professional that you check in with?
Pat Ellis (49:41.276)
Sure. Well, you know, a lot of it in that being prepared is having that mental professor to check in with, but even just a daily practice of self -care. Every time I go out on the street and I'm out on the scene of an incident on a call, after that call is over, I take a few minutes to process through, check in with myself. How am I feeling? How am I doing? Even if it was just a general routine.
nothingness, just my normal everyday 86 year old male CPR. Cause in my world, all my calls are death, right? Yeah, so, okay. So I sit down and I pause for a minute and just check in with myself, process through that emotional experience. How am I feeling? And why am I feeling that way? And then I make that a habit so that when I go to that really horrific infant,
Jennifer (50:17.294)
right.
Pat Ellis (50:35.1)
death call where this little infant was murdered by my boyfriend. And I walk away from that and I'm feeling horrifically sad. I'm immediately going into my routine. How am I doing? What am I experiencing? Why am I experiencing that? Right? That mental processing, that emotional experience. So I'm doing that all the time. It becomes a habit. The other thing is, is that every day I take a few minutes before I go to bed at night to think about what was good about my day.
because it is important that I am thinking on things that are right, that are just, that are lovely, that are good, that are pure because input into my heart, you know, what goes in is gonna come out. And if I'm constantly just putting in trauma and darkness and death and destruction and violence, pretty soon it's gonna be darkness that starts coming out, you know? So I have to somehow convert those sayings. And so it's important that I'm thinking on things that are lovely, that are just.
what was good about my day, make that a habit. So you just, I mean, there's little things like that. And then of course, you know, like I weekly mountain bike, mountain biking is my thing. That's what I've loved to do. It's my hobby. So I mean, I invest in that. I go out and I make sure that I'm out there doing those things, right? So it's just the constant input investment into my mental and emotional and spiritual health is that's gonna be important.
Jennifer (52:00.43)
I wrote a note when I was in your lecture, I wrote a note down and I'm not sure if it was something that triggered in my brain or if it was actually a phrase that you said. But I wrote down, I'm reading right out of my book here, sometimes self -care is the deletion of self -abuse, the deletion or the removal of self -abuse.
Pat Ellis (52:03.802)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (52:22.492)
Yeah, I could I totally see where you got that. We start talking about like positive self -affirmations, right? Because are we not our own worst critics? That's part of our personality. When something goes wrong or I perceive it to be wrong, then it's my fault. I must not be good enough. When somebody looked at me and said, well, you know, if you're your own worst critic, you can be your own best cheerleader. I rolled my eyes at him. But the truth is, is that we are good at what we do.
And when I say when I walk away from a scene and go, man, I'm good at what I do. I did everything I possibly could have done to help those people. And I did a good job. That's not because I'm prideful. You know, there's a difference there. I'm better than you. That's pride. But no, I'm I'm good enough to do this. There's scientific studies that says that that choosing positive self -affirmations has a direct impact on things like error related negativity and.
our outlook on life and hope that we have in the world. There's a tremendous amount of power there. And so yes, it is vital important that we tell ourselves, I did a good job. As dumb as that sounds, it is amazing how that works. It really does. Yeah, I just challenge people, try it, try it. Give yourself two weeks and tell yourself every time you go out on a call, I did good on that call, right? It is amazing to outlook.
Jennifer (53:30.286)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Pat Ellis (53:46.556)
It'll change your outlook. It really will. Yep.
Jennifer (53:48.494)
Yeah. I started off in EMS in 1989 and became a paramedic by 1991. And so the career has been long and I've been very fortunate. I'm going to knock on some wood so it's going to be transmitted here, but no significant injuries. I've never had to have a shoulder rebuilt. I've never had to have lumbar shots or anything like that. So I feel really good about that.
Pat Ellis (54:02.716)
Yes.
Hehehehehe
Pat Ellis (54:10.844)
Right.
Jennifer (54:18.254)
One of the things that I realized is exactly what you just said is this idea of telling myself when I've done good, telling myself that...
what went well instead of dwelling on the cringe worthy or I just interviewed somebody yesterday for the podcast and that one's going to air sometime, but I fall down a lot at work. And that's not a, that's not a figurative. That's not a, that's not metaphorical. I physically fall down a lot between firefighting and my natural clumsiness. And then, you know, big fat cats in dark houses when I walk in to help a patient, that sort of thing, I fall down a lot. So,
Pat Ellis (54:36.444)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (54:50.46)
you
Pat Ellis (55:00.268)
Right?
Jennifer (55:02.542)
Um, but it's, and it's cringe worthy. I just, I can't believe I did that. And everybody saw it. And I have now morphed that into like, I get up, I bounce, I get up, I move on, brush the cat hair off. Um, but there, there's this idea that I've had throughout the last, the last, easily the last half of my career is that if I go in to whatever the situation is,
Pat Ellis (55:11.996)
Right?
Jennifer (55:28.494)
And I do my job and I can come out of that and saying, no matter the outcome of everything, I did my very best work. I did that. That's what I try to hold on to. And so then that's how I analyze things. And that gives me this sort of positive mental attitude, regardless of the outcome with the patient. The things that we can't control or we tried to control and we fail at, so to speak. But yeah, that little thing about...
All right, stop thinking about the fact that you fell down again. Start thinking about the fact that you, you know, you didn't tag out, you got back in. The bruising isn't as bad this time. Everybody got a laugh out of it.
Pat Ellis (56:05.916)
Right?
Pat Ellis (56:09.832)
Exactly. Well, I've got a sign. You can't see it, but it's on my on my wall here. It says he who laughs at himself never runs out of things to laugh at.
Jennifer (56:21.614)
And I'm writing that one down now too. Yep. Very nice. Okay. So.
Pat Ellis (56:27.132)
Right?
Pat Ellis (56:32.128)
Yeah, because I mean, that's, you know, I truly believe that enjoying life is a choice. The things that happen to us, the environments that we grew up in, the abuse that we're, you know, exposed to as kids or whatever, there's things, there's choices that other people make about their lives that have direct impact on my life that I have no ability to control. If somebody,
You know, like in my past, I've never, I've grown up in a great family, I've never been abused, but I know other people who have grown up in a terrible past. They didn't choose to be born into that family and have those things happen to them when they were little bitty kids, but they did. You know, and so do I walk around and I'm angry at the world because of all these things that I can't control? Or do I allow the things in my past to make me better at?
helping other people, right? You know, I mean, it's all choice. And I make it sound easy and someone who's had an abusive past is gonna say, Pat, you're full of crap. You don't know what you're talking about. Possibly because I don't have an abusive past. But I do also believe that we have the power to choose how and what we do and how we react and respond to different things. And, you know, the positivity that we have in our lives. Some people are, you know, optimistic. Some people are pessimistic.
you know by nature, but we all can choose to maintain hope in what is around us and I choose to smile throughout my day. You know, I I'm my day my world is full of grief. It's all I do with this death. But I love what I do and I choose to love what I do you know, and so it's like your job you've been in his career long enough. You love what you do you know have you seen some horrific things oh God, yeah.
Right? We have. But I didn't choose those things to happen, but I got to be there. I'm the one that got to walk into that situation and help that person. How cool is that? Right? What an honor to be, to get to be that guy. And those choices, those are perspectives. And that's a big part of that perspective, right? When you start thinking, oh my God, I have to do this again. I can't do this. And you start to lose that perspective. That's a huge,
Pat Ellis (58:59.676)
red flag that, hey, let's do something about what's going on in your world. It's time for a shift to the next continuum of care because we don't have to. I know several people who've been diagnosed with PTSD, Post -Mact stress disorder, have gone through the whole LNI claim and are now medically retired because of that. Does that make them less of a person because they, no.
Not at all. And they're enjoying life and they're doing good. Do they wish they could still be a cop or be a firefighter? Oh yeah, they do. But they also at the same time have said, you know what, this is where I'm at. I served, I did my best, and I'm gonna make the best of what I have in my life now. Right? That's that choice. But then I also know those other guys who aren't doing so well. And I'm not saying that they buck up and choose to do what's right. I'm saying we're all different and we all just have to make the best.
or where we're at. And I think that's an attitude, you know, and not making it sound really easy and it ain't because it's not our default setting, but it is something that we just have to constantly strive towards and work towards. I love what I do, you know, and most of everybody around me that I know of loves what they do. Hard? Yes, yeah, absolutely. But man, how cool is it that we get to do what we do, right? Yeah.
Jennifer (01:00:05.934)
Yeah.
Jennifer (01:00:22.382)
Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned your job and how you deal with grief and dying all the time. I think one of the experiences I had early on in my career was I was always the person tagged to notify the family that the patient was deceased.
or to terminate efforts, those kind of things. And whether it was something about my personality, whether it was that I'm female, whether it was, there's a thing that, yeah, maybe that's true. But that was always something that I, I didn't necessarily relish the job, but I definitely embraced that job and that moment of sitting with a family member and telling them,
Pat Ellis (01:00:42.404)
Uh huh.
Pat Ellis (01:00:51.516)
You just drew the shirt straw and didn't know it.
Jennifer (01:01:11.182)
this is what we've done, this is what the response is, we need you to start to let go, we need you to make it okay that this has happened. And that process that, and so that's been an aspect of my career that I feel very fortunate that I started off well with that and carried that through. And it's also an interesting one because I've recently had to teach it to a trainee and I realized, it was just,
Pat Ellis (01:01:28.412)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (01:01:40.366)
just routine, nothing special about the trainee, just routine that hadn't happened for them. And I realized that I haven't really given a lot of thought to sharing that, how to make that okay. Or I haven't really looked at recognizing in my partners when it's not okay for them to do. So, you know, there's some planning there that it's kind of come up recently. I've had noodling around in the back of my head. You did say something at your...
Pat Ellis (01:01:59.9)
Great.
Jennifer (01:02:10.31)
presentation that I wrote down talking about resiliency and you described resiliency as psychological body armor.
And that's a great visual for me. That's the idea that I am resilient. The things that I do to build resiliency in myself have this outward appearance. Even if it's only in my imagination, it has this outward protection, this body armor clanking around as I march into things. And I think that that was a really great turn of phrase of yours.
Pat Ellis (01:02:37.308)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it really is. I mean, we wear body armor because we're in dangerous situations and scenes of violence where that, you know, the necessity of that protection could happen. And so the same thing when it comes to our mental, emotional, spiritual health.
is that we are constantly putting ourselves into dangerous situations where these things could absolutely have an impact on our world. So if I'm prepared, you know, that physical body armor is toughness, right? Or that mental, emotional body armor is toughness. I need to be tough to do this job. Well, toughness doesn't just happen. It happens because I'm preparing for it and I'm doing things to...
to make sure that I'm putting on that ballistic vest before I go to work, right? And metaphorically, I'm putting on that protection. I know that I'm going to be exposed to some horrific, sad things in this job. And so what am I doing to be prepared with that? That's what the whole piece is all about. That's resiliency.
Jennifer (01:03:49.676)
It's interesting, you went to body armor, the literal bulletproof vest. And of course, I know that you work with law enforcement and my body armor was sort of something out of like the battle scene at Hogwarts, the metal. And it's kind of funny in my mind, if I drew a little doodle here, it would be...
Pat Ellis (01:04:03.996)
Thank you.
Jennifer (01:04:10.548)
metal body armor from the the the Middle Ages and the Dark Ages and things and year like body armor. Oh, yeah, that's another way of thinking of it. Right. I do have a bulletproof vest come to think of it.
Pat Ellis (01:04:14.276)
Right.
Pat Ellis (01:04:20.956)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, it's funny is because you do we do we think that body armor was like, you know, that stuff is clunky and heavy to carry around just easier just to put it aside and I'll pick it up when I need it. Right? No, you need to wear it all the time. Because you don't know when you're gonna need it. That's the key. Right? Don't know. So yeah, yeah.
Jennifer (01:04:31.758)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jennifer (01:04:38.382)
Yeah. Very nice. Very nice. Just one second. There was a thought there and so I'm going to click, try and bring it back. Oh, I remember now. Okay.
Pat Ellis (01:04:48.988)
Hehehehehe
Jennifer (01:04:56.872)
One of the things I've learned as I've studied leadership in my graduate studies is about Starbucks. Starbucks is just a leadership model that there's a lot of books written about. And one of the things I learned was when new baristas are being trained and they're given their green apron, they're told to think of their green apron. If they turned it around backwards, it wouldn't be an apron. It would be a cape. It would make them a superhero and it would protect.
them. So when they wear it in front of them, the cape is protecting them from what can be a lot of negativity from the customers. Because of course, anybody who's ever worked in customer service, absolutely knows a whole lot more about EMS, fire, law enforcement, then they then they realize you have no idea how prepared you are. Just by working the the returns counter at a JC Penney's or something like that, you know what the job is to be in fire, EMS and law. And I think of that.
Pat Ellis (01:05:37.168)
Right? Exactly. Exactly.
Pat Ellis (01:05:49.34)
Yeah.
Jennifer (01:05:53.782)
sort of that green, the idea of that green apron as a cape every now and then. And we had a patient who was recently very verbally abusive directed at me. It was, it was the person, it was what they were doing. It was just fine. And I, I had the tablet in my hand, the digital tablet for paperwork. And it was really funny because I, we were waiting at the elevator with the patient on the stretcher and I was behind the head. It was trying to stay out of sight. So I wasn't upsetting the person. I turned to my partner and like,
Pat Ellis (01:06:14.106)
Is it?
Pat Ellis (01:06:21.884)
Hehehehehe
Jennifer (01:06:23.95)
Ever hear this thing about the green apron at Starbucks being actually like a cape that protects you? And he said, no, I never heard that. And he was like, oh, that's kind of cool. I'm like the tablet right in front of me. I'm like, I can block it like like Wonder Woman's shield. Well, actually, she has bracelets. The shield is no, the new Wonder Woman has a shield. I'm going with her. OK. Well, I have one last turn of phrase to ask you about from your presentation. I saved it for the end because I kind of.
Pat Ellis (01:06:32.284)
Right?
Jennifer (01:06:53.838)
I could definitely geek out on this one a little bit, but you talked about decision fatigue and that as a manifestation of the way the secondary traumatic stress, the vicarious stress, the PTSD, like the whole world of work -related stressors that we take upon ourselves, and sometimes it causes decision fatigue. I think I see that a lot, and I actually think I have the opposite of that, which I'll tell you about, but I think I see that a lot.
And I don't think I ever really thought of it as being a problem related to job stress. But can you talk about what decision fatigue is and how that sort of plays into this?
Pat Ellis (01:07:32.252)
Yeah, you know, really it all boils down to that lack of energy. You know, where we've spent all that emotional energy just dealing with people and circumstances and stuff. And now I just don't have the energy to do it. And that's where that compassion fatigue is. Interruption of your emotional connection where I'm just, ah, I just don't have it. And then I sit down and I have to make a decision. I make life and death decisions, you know. I help people with some horrific, tough decisions they have to make.
Jennifer (01:07:35.884)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (01:08:01.148)
And now I'm having to make this simple decision of just, what do I just want to eat today? Right? I don't know. I don't have the energy. I don't have the energy to put into, you know, we got to make a decision about what color do we want to paint the room? I don't care. It's like, well, I want you to care. I want input. Well, I don't care, you know, because I just don't have the lack. So that decision fatigue is just the lack of caring or energy to make a decision for what I want.
And it oftentimes like in my world it comes out with menus. I hate menus. I just don't know what I want, you know. I know what I want. I want something to eat and I want, but I just, I sit there and I look at that menu. I'm like, oh, screw this. I don't want, I just give me a hamburger, right? Or give me fish and chips. Yeah. Because I'm just tired. I'm just tired of, I just don't have the energy. That's really what it boils down to. And that's where that hallmark of compassion fatigue.
Jennifer (01:08:54.434)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (01:08:59.036)
the lack of energy to move forward or do whatever you like to do. Yeah, that's where that plays into. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer (01:09:03.886)
Mm -hmm.
So I am hoping to do a podcast soon about nutrition in emergency service workers because we're just terrible, right? Our nutrition, our dietary habits, even if we're being strict and working to accomplish something, we can actually be very punitive with our dietary habits and limiting ourselves from things that make us feel good. But what I notice about myself is...
Pat Ellis (01:09:18.882)
Thank you.
Jennifer (01:09:33.838)
I actually, I'm sort of black and white on this one. In one moment, I will want to have somebody else decide my dinner. In fact, last night it was one of those, what do you want for dinner? And I said, I want to not cook. I want to not go out. I want to not make a decision. That's what I want. It is on you. And so that is a manifestation of the stress. But for me,
Pat Ellis (01:09:50.012)
Uh -huh.
Pat Ellis (01:10:00.028)
Yes, it is.
Jennifer (01:10:01.454)
there's also this interesting manifestation of stress release and that is, I love the Cheesecake Factory menu, that 53 page menu. I want to read it cover to cover. I will, now the thing is I'll overorder, I'll be very unwise in my food choices, but I'm just like, oh, look at the next thing. And so if I'm presented with the grocery store when I'm on duty and I'm hungry, of course you should never go to the grocery store hungry. And we do that constantly.
Pat Ellis (01:10:11.804)
Uh huh.
Pat Ellis (01:10:28.252)
Right?
Jennifer (01:10:30.51)
right? You're on duty, you don't have a food plan, your food plan has gotten interrupted, so you go to the grocery store and I will roam that store and pick up the most random objects. And as I'm looking at it, like this is the thing that I want, but then I don't grab it and head to the counter, I keep hitting the store. And so I'm having decision fatigue, I'm having starvation and hunger, and then I have this natural like, ooh, what else is out there sort of thing going on.
Pat Ellis (01:10:39.996)
Right?
Pat Ellis (01:10:53.436)
Right.
Jennifer (01:10:56.43)
So yeah, decision fatigue, it got me. But your analogy was specifically that you hate the Cheesecake Factory menu. And I'm thinking like, no, that's my happy place. Not the Cheesecake Factory, just the menu. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me with my husband, meal planning is something that I do. I try to have a plan like,
Pat Ellis (01:11:04.028)
Right. I love that. Right. Isn't that funny too? It manifests itself differently for all of us, you know? Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Jennifer (01:11:25.812)
let's just decide what we're going to do. We're going to have lunch at home and dinner out. Are we going to have both at home? Just give me a general plan for the day. And then usually by the time it does come around to dinner, I know that I'm cooking at home. I've already taken a minute and pulled something out of the freezer and enjoy the cooking aspect of it. But oh man, last night we, I'm training for the firefighter stair climb. So I did an extra hard workout and I got back and just sat on the couch and said, not going to pick.
Pat Ellis (01:11:54.62)
Hehehehehe
Jennifer (01:11:55.79)
So, all right. So one last thing, not related to anything you said, but I did have an observation from your class in Skagit. And I wanted to call it, you wouldn't know this. It was with regard to the makeup of the audience. And it ties into why I want to talk to the Mount Vernon mayor about bringing you back to the city. When I looked around the room in Skagit County,
First of all, there were nearly 50 people. If not 50, there were nearly 50 there. And a good 25 of them were EMT students, which was really wonderful. The EMT class prioritized the course leaders, prioritized having the class come. And in fact, they took the first three rows. I was very proud of my students. They took the first three rows and they were in class. And then the rest of the audience for your presentation was made up of...
Pat Ellis (01:12:25.532)
Yep. Yep.
Pat Ellis (01:12:30.524)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (01:12:39.772)
Yeah.
Jennifer (01:12:49.088)
assorted people from throughout the county. I think all of our support officers were there. Quite a few of our support officers who do what you do were there. And a lot of volunteers, but out of 50 people, and I could be wrong about this, but only to the tune of one or two people, there were only four paid career personnel in the room. Again, I could be wrong about somebody who's new, but we're a very small county, so I had a pretty good fix.
We were well represented across four agencies. Each agency sort of had one person. I don't think it was a deliberate representation. But what I noticed, oh, and I should also add for those who weren't involved in the class, it was a Saturday morning. So that can be hard just on the face of it. But what I did notice is out of 50 people, you were talking to absolutely the people that you needed to. But what we didn't get there were career people.
And I wonder if you could talk about the difference between being a volunteer and this idea that education is being offered, you're going out to get it, you're seeking out this preparedness, which I think is wonderful about our volunteers. And maybe, do you think there's a mindset among career people that they don't need this? Do you have an explanation aside from Saturday morning, aside from, I had a tough shift the night before sort of stuff?
Pat Ellis (01:14:09.116)
Heheheheh
Right, yeah, all the above. There are people out there who are like, I don't need this. Or, I mean, we'll always have that stigma in the culture, can't reach out for help because we're the help givers. That's just part of our personality style. But going to these classes, sometimes we're just classed out or retired or I don't see the relatability to me. It's a Saturday morning, it's my family time, my kids are off.
There's a lot of different reasons. Part of it is there could be a lot of them didn't know about it. I don't know what the advertising looked like across the county, right, for that. So there could have been that piece. So I think there's a lot of different things that go into that. But anytime we offer classes on different topics, yeah, for some reason, there's just a lot of people who...
where I'm here right now doing my job for today. I don't really necessarily care about what's gonna happen tomorrow and what happened yesterday. That already happened, so there's nothing I can do about it. And this class just doesn't fit where I'm at right now. Where they see themselves, right? And they're not looking beyond the going, hey, how can I increase my knowledge so that I can be better? Because we just, our personality styles, we're just here right now, you know?
I think it all plays a part into that, why we didn't see more career staff there. Right? Yeah.
Jennifer (01:15:44.334)
Sure. I just, I noticed I had that observation and I think that our advertising was pretty good, but I also think that maybe we didn't have anybody championing it among, for example, my agency. I don't think we, we didn't have anybody saying, Hey, are you going to this thing? I'm going to go to this thing. I've been to this thing before. Would you go if it wasn't on a Saturday? I tried very hard to champion it in.
Pat Ellis (01:16:03.196)
Right.
Jennifer (01:16:11.85)
Snohomish County when you were down there at the Everett, because I had already gone to your presentation, so I knew what to expect. And so I actually reached out to a few people that weren't at the Skagit one and, you know, just a few different ways. And I hope that that influenced, I know of a couple of people that attended because I, I texted them the flyer sort of thing. But, and this, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Pat Ellis (01:16:21.564)
Right.
Pat Ellis (01:16:32.354)
Good. Yeah. I was quite impressed with the attendance for being a morning class on a midweek. It was pretty good. Yeah.
Jennifer (01:16:41.422)
I'll tell you why there's there's some differences in the two counties Snohomish County versus Skagit County. But one of them is Snohomish County. You get a lot of people like meeting hours, sort of daylight business hours. And that's got a lot of appeal in that particular county, which is interesting. And then the Skagit County, of course, if we had that instead of the Saturday morning, we would have had probably more career people, but far fewer of the volunteers.
Pat Ellis (01:16:54.428)
Mm -hmm.
Pat Ellis (01:16:59.004)
Right? Right?
Jennifer (01:17:11.022)
And so, you know, it's just, it's logistics is just an interesting one. But I was wondering if about sort of the mindset and mentality. And this obviously speaks to why you're going to be going back out to San Juan Island because they experienced it and they want more people to experience it. And this is why I'm going to, you know, try and talk about having another session in Skagit County thinking about Mount Vernon right now. Pat.
Pat Ellis (01:17:36.144)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. And that often happens a lot of times where, you know, you come in and you teach class and everybody's like, that was actually really good. I wish more people could, what's getting back out here, right? You know? Right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Cause you know, a lot of times when you don't know, I don't know the instructor, I've never heard of them or, or I don't really know necessarily. I don't know if this is going to appeal.
Jennifer (01:17:48.334)
That wasn't a waste of my time. How amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
Pat Ellis (01:18:04.764)
you know, if I need this topic and decision fatigue, right?
Jennifer (01:18:10.136)
Yeah, decision fatigue. There you go. There you go. So Saturday morning, it's pretty easy for me to say the decision's been made. My kids are off. My spouse is at home. There's a lawn to mow. Right? There are certain decisions that are easier to make. Pat, thank you so much for being here and sharing all of your thoughts. And I just can't say enough nice things. I had such a great time. I tried really hard to get a trade so I could get down to your lecture in Snohomish County, and I wasn't able to make it.
Pat Ellis (01:18:20.22)
Yeah.
Pat Ellis (01:18:38.3)
Right, right.
Jennifer (01:18:39.502)
But I wonder before we sign off, if you could do me a favor and say your name and your contact email and then spell it out the way they would get you in case anybody listening wants to reach out to you for an inquiry, however you'd like to be reached. And this will get pulled into the transcription, but those who are listening might be able to copy it down.
Pat Ellis (01:18:51.356)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely
Pat Ellis (01:18:58.588)
Right, right. Well, I'll give you two different email addresses. So, so Pat Ellis is my name and my work email address is P Ellis. So P E L L I S at Puget sound fire .org. It's all one word Puget sound fire. Or my personal email is simply chaplain71 at gmail .com chaplain, not Charlie chaplain. It's.
the chaplain, so C -H -A -P -L -A -I -N, the number seven, the number one, at gmail .com. Either one of those email addresses reaches me at any time, and I would be happy to talk with other people about either doing a class or just resources that are available, or what do you need? What can I do to help you? Right? That's what I'm all about. Yeah.
Jennifer (01:19:47.982)
Yeah. Perfect. Thank you so much for your time and energy and enthusiasm and your positive outlook and giving me thoughts about decision fatigue and my choice of body armor. I really appreciate it.
Pat Ellis (01:19:52.73)
Yeah!
Pat Ellis (01:20:02.78)
You bet. Will you let me know when this is going to drop so I can... Yeah.
Jennifer (01:20:08.366)
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Okay, yeah, absolutely. That way he'll know at least what region to cut the end here. So the podcast comes out every other Wednesday. We had one come out this past Wednesday and next Wednesday, a Wednesday, not this week, but next, that whole Wednesday next, but two weeks, not this Wednesday, but the next Wednesday. It will either be you or the podcast I recorded yesterday.
Pat Ellis (01:20:22.108)
Oh, okay.
Jennifer (01:20:40.802)
The difference is the podcast I recorded yesterday, we might split into two. And if we split it into two, then I think I'll bump you ahead and then split that into two. It was a young man who has a training company, sorry, a consultant company for interview prep. He does coaching, interview coaching. And we just had a great conversation about how to go through the process of getting these jobs.
Pat Ellis (01:20:59.58)
Oh wow.
Gotcha.
Pat Ellis (01:21:10.426)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (01:21:10.53)
And then we had a second sort of portion where I asked him interview questions and he answered them and we discussed his answers. And I haven't yet checked the time on that, but I'd kind of like to break that into two. So one is about getting the job and then the other one is about the interview. But yeah, definitely this one will be out in the next two months and I'll text message or email you letting you know when it's coming out. We do, we appear on all the...
Pat Ellis (01:21:17.436)
Right.
Pat Ellis (01:21:36.316)
Yeah, it'd be great.
Jennifer (01:21:40.142)
all the podcast platforms, so Spotify, Apple, Amazon, and there's a few other ones. Yeah, and we actually had this last, sorry, two podcasts ago, we had an Everett Police Department recruiter on. So he talked about how he finds people, that gets people to the job. And he actually came onto my radar because I was looking for information about how to get jobs if you have tattoos, if you're significantly tattooed.
somebody said, you know who you should talk to, this Everett police officer. So he's in recruitment. He has two full sleeves, full, densely full sleeves. One is all superheroes and the other one is all supervillains. And his police chief let him first, because they had to be covered up, his police chief let him show his tattoos wearing a short sleeve shirt when he was attending, he was doing security for one of the Marvel movie premieres.
Pat Ellis (01:22:11.832)
I'm
Pat Ellis (01:22:17.66)
Right.
Pat Ellis (01:22:21.532)
Oh wow.
Pat Ellis (01:22:37.244)
Right? Right?
Jennifer (01:22:37.858)
something like that. And so it was just this thing where it generated this buzz. Anyway, so the gist of it is his tattoos basically have an international Instagram following. And as a result of interviewing him, our podcast has suddenly had a big bump up in interest. And we've now got, we have had some international listeners, like one here, one there. Lisbon was like the first international and then one in Italy and a few others.
Pat Ellis (01:22:48.412)
Ha ha!
Pat Ellis (01:22:55.932)
Oh wow.
Jennifer (01:23:06.222)
but we hit Moscow, we hit the Caribbean, we hit Tokyo. Yeah, so a bunch. And so I have no idea the reach of this right now because we're just coming off of that, like, wait, what does this mean? Yeah. And it's all because of this cool tattoo moment. But yeah, you're gonna go global. When this happens, you're gonna go global. So that's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
Pat Ellis (01:23:08.796)
That's cool.
Pat Ellis (01:23:17.884)
Right.
Pat Ellis (01:23:22.716)
You never know, you know.
Right? Right? That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, I've enjoyed being on today. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.
Jennifer (01:23:35.168)
Absolutely, absolutely. This was really wonderful. And I'm very serious about, I just see this niche for you to come into Mount Vernon. I just know where you should speak, who should be invited, and how we should get them all there. And it's not necessarily because of, I'm worried that people are having a problem. It is that idea of being proactive about developing a resiliency by planning for it. That was really what came across.
Pat Ellis (01:23:47.932)
Hahaha
Pat Ellis (01:23:58.332)
Yes.
Pat Ellis (01:24:02.396)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good.
Jennifer (01:24:04.878)
Yeah. OK. On the screen, I believe it's in the upper left hand corner. It says record and I'm going to click it and that should let's see if that turns it off. There's there's the hang up at the bottom and I don't want to do that one just yet. So record duty to act. This gets me every time. Back to dashboard. Now.
Pat Ellis (01:24:14.34)
Mm -hmm.
Jennifer (01:24:34.126)
Stay in studio, leave studio. Okay. Well, I think I'm just gonna hang up. If you can, when I, oh, hang on, I know where it is. It's stop. It's written across the bottom and it says stop.
Pat Ellis (01:24:42.716)
You